Descusión:Idioma serbocroata

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1a/Slavic_languages.png

Idioma croata spesial: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Croatian_dialects.PNG

Si o etnonimo plural ye crobates o idioma será....

Creigo que en aragonés lo hemos de escribir con consonant etimolochica, que desfá por atra parte o hiato. A terminazión no ye guaire ortodocsa e se puet discutir. Propongo que en aragonés escribamos serbocrobate, serbocrobato, serbocrobat u serbocrobata...¿cuala sería a més correcta?.--EBRO 19:18 2 otu 2009 (UTC)

Ixo yera lo que yo preguntaba en a descusión de crobates :-D... yo me suposo que si o plural ye "crobates" o más natural ye escribir "crobate"... si escribisenos "crobat" en singular o plural aberba d'estar "crobaz". Cuan aigamos preso una dezisión feré o cambeyo con o bot tanto en singular como en plural. --Willtron (?)

19:26 2 otu 2009 (UTC)

Veigo que tenemos una dentrada serbo-croata y unatra idioma crovate; en os dos casos s'habría a unificar o termino, que considero que ha d'estar "crovata" (serbo-crovata y Idioma crovata).--Francho 13:16 4 ago 2010 (UTC)[responder]

Si, tiens razón, yo escribiría idioma servocrovate, luenga servocrovata, pero a questión mos supera un poquet estando tan pocos usuarios, o que mos obliga a estar prudents. Sobre o etnonimo crovates tamién tenemos atra discusión.--EBRO 13:25 4 ago 2010 (UTC)[responder]

Si o que preguntas ye o de borrar l'articlo idioma crovate, no cal, porque en realidat ye un articlo sobre l'uso crovate d'o idioma servocrovate, bi ha en atras wikis articlos con títol equivalent, y este articlo ye d'o mesmo estilo de l'articlo luenga valenciana, on especificamos que fa part d'o catalán, y que se XXX los blaveros y peperos.--EBRO 13:27 4 ago 2010 (UTC)[responder]

Agora tenemos como títol Idioma serbocroata. Como minimo ta tener coherencia con o etnonimo crovates, voi a tresladar-lo ta Idioma serbocrovate, adhibindo nomás ixa -v-. Tamién foi a reendrecera dende Idioma serbocrovata, y quan tiengamos más datos, se cambia a rematanza si cal.--Juan Pablo 17:04 23 ago 2010 (UTC)[responder]

Suposo que habría que escribir idioma serbocrovate y luenga serbocrovata, no se si existe o femenín mainata de mainate, caldrá mirar parabras que en aragonés actual tiengan una -e final dezaga de -t talment recomposata. En relación a lo plural ya tos dicié que cal escribir crovates con plural en -es porque ye a sola cita clara, l'atra ye troacs con errors de confusions de letras tipicos d'a caligrafía meyeval, y l'atra crovati (elemento latín en un texto romanz). Ixo no quiere dicir que no haiga existito un plural tipo crovatz que encara no he puesto documentar.--EBRO 22:58 27 nov 2010 (UTC)[responder]

Idioma difereca

Engels	Kroaties	Serwies
Compare	Usporedba	Поређење (Poređenje)
Europe	Europa	Европа (Evropa)
Netherlands	Nizozemska	Холандија (Holandija)
Italians	Talijani	Италијани (Italijani)
Universe	Svemir	Васиона (Vasiona)
Spine	Kralježnica	Кичма (Kičma)
Air	Zrak	Ваздух (Vazduh)
Education	Odgoj	Васпитање (Vaspitanje)
Week	Tjedan	Седмица (Sedmica)
History	Povijest	Историја (Istorija)
Pantaloons	Hlače	Панталоне (Pantalone)
Belly	Trbuh	Стомак (Stomak)
Science	Znanost	Наука (Nauka)
Personally	Osobno	Лично (Lično)
Persona	Osoba	Лице (Lice)
United Nations	Ujedinjeni Narodi	Уједињене Нације (Ujedinjene Nacije)
Bread	Kruh	Хлеб (Hleb)
Artificial	Umjetno	Вештачки (Veštački)
Cross	Križ	Крст (Krst)
Democracy	Demokracija	Демократија (Demokratija)
Detection	Spoznaja	Сазнање (Saznanje)
Island	Otok	Острво (Ostrvo)
Officer	Časnik	Официр (Oficir)
Road traffic	Cestovni promet	Друмски саобраћај (Drumski saobraćaj)
Autobahn	Autocesta	Аутопут (Autoput)
Length	Duljina	Дужина (Dužina)
Association	Udruga	Удружење (Udruženje)
Factory	Tvornica	Фабрика (Fabrika)
General	Opće	Опште (Opšte)
Christ	Krist	Христoс (Hristos)
I'm sorry	Oprosti	Извини (Izvini)
Native language standard	Materinski jezićni standard	Матерњи језички стандард

Serbo-Croata/Croato-Serba differents idioma

Serbo-Croata/Croato-Serba group 4 idioma !

Diferente idioma

Français	Croate	Bosniaqe	Serbe
Comme les gaz d'échappement et la pollution atmosphérique dans la Jérusalem, il serait nécessaire de prendre des mesures pour assurer la sécurité!	Glede ispušnih plinova i zagađivanja zraka u Jeruzalemu, bilo bi potrebito poduzeti mjere sigurnosti!	U pogledu izduvnih gasova i zagađivanja vazduha u Jerusalimu, bilo bi potrebno preduzeti mjere bezbjednosti!	У погледу издувних гасова и загађивања ваздуха у Јерусалиму, било би потребно предузети мере безбедности!

Croate	Bosniaqe	Serbe	Français
Bijela sol za kuhanje kemijski je spoj natrija i klora.	Bijela so za kuhanje je hemijski spoj natrijuma i hlora.	Bela so za kuvanje je hemijsko jedinjenje natrijuma i hlora.	Le sel blanc pour la cuisine est un composé chimique du sodium et du chlore.
Vlak sa željezničkoga kolodvora krenut će točno u deset sati.	Voz sa željezničke stanice krenut će tačno u deset sati.	Voz sa železničke stanice krenuće tačno u deset sati/časova.	Le train de la gare va commencer exactement à dix heures.

This doesn't make a diferent tongue, in all the tongues there is geosinomims and little fonetic differences between the variants. --EBRO 13:25 4 ago 2010 (UTC)[responder]

serbo-crovate ????

Grupo serbocrovate = idioma serbe + idioma crovate + idioma bosniaqe + idioma montenegre
Grupo espanie = idioma kastilie + idioma katalonie + idioma galiege..

No, nothing to do with this... there's no "grupo espanie"... where do you find this?? Castilian, Catalonian and Galician are all of them different languages... on the other hand we're talking about different standards of the same language: serbo-croatian... here we have one language and four different standards: Bosnian, Croatian, Serbian and Montenegrin... those standards are based only in regional differences with different names due to political reasons (different countries). Just like "Catalonian" and "Valencian" or "Galician" and "Portuguese"... but Castilian, Catalonian and Galician??? what's the relation between this three languages??? ...So... what's exactly your question? what do you mean with this? Regards --Willtron (?)

22:59 27 nov 2010 (UTC)[responder]

Between the croatian of Ragusa, the bosniac of Mostar and the serbian of Belgrado there is total comprehesion, like between the valencian and barcelonian use of catalan, and like the galician and portuguese uses of galacoportugués. It's not posible total comprehesion without not learning betweeen catalan and castellanish, it's the reason that mades catalan, aragonese and castellanish different languages ant the same reason that makes stokavski serbocroatian a common and single language. I have been in Montenegro, Herzegovina and Dalmatia and the words are almost the same and some words like the word to say hidrochén are very different in croatian use because of the way to introduce the neologisms whit total traduction from original rooths. The divergence of slavic and turquic languages and dialects is more recent than the divergence in latin languages, so the differences are smaller.--EBRO 23:23 27 nov 2010 (UTC)[responder]

All Slavic languages are similar but not the same language

Differences between the Croatian and Serbian on the other languages are equal to differences between the Czech and Slovak / Bulgarian and Macedonian / Russian and Belarussian / Danish and Norwegian .....

These are old DIFFERENCES

These are illustrated in the following table:

Late Proto-slavic reconstruction	Late Proto-Slavic meaning	Old Church Slavonic	Slovenian	Croatian(CROVATE)	Serbian(SERBE)	Bulgarian	Macedonian	Czech	Slovak	Polish	Belarusian	Russian	Ukrainian
		South Slavic					West Slavic			East Slavic
*gvězda	star	звѣзда	zvezda	zvijezda	звезда	звезда	звезда	hvězda	hviezda	gwiazda	зорка	звезда	звізда
*květъ	flower, bloom	цвѣтъ	cvet	cvijet	цвет	цвете	цвет	květ	kvet	kwiat	кветка	цвет	квітка
*tisošta	tisošta	тысѫшта	tisoč	tisuća	хиљада	хиляда	илјада	tisíc	tisíc	tysiąc	тисяча	тысяча	тисяча

Different phonetics 1

Feature	Croatian	Serbian	English
Opposition -u/e	burza	berza	stock-exchange
Opposition -u/e	porculan	porcelan	porcelain
Opposition -u/i	tanjur	tanjir	plate
Opposition -l/-o after o	sol	so	salt
	vol	vo	ox
	kolčić	kočić	stick
Serbian often drops letter H in the initial and medial position:	čahura	čaura	cartridge
	hrvač	rvač	wrestler
	hrđa	rđa	rust

Different phonetics 2

Croatian language	Latin	altgriechische Aussprache	Gerk alphabet\|griech. Buchstabe	byzantinische Aussprache	Serbian language
b	b	[b]	β	[v]	v
e	e	[ɛː]	η	[i]	i
k oder c	c	[k]	κ	[k]	k
u	u	[u̯]	υ (nach Vokal)	[v]	v
k oder h	ch	[kʰ]	χ	[x]	h

Different morphology

Example 1:

English	Croatian	Serbian
add by pouring*	dolijevati	dolivati*
diarrhea	proljev	proliv
gulf, bay	zaljev	zaliv
to influence	utjecati	uticati

Example 2:

English	Serbian	Croatian
tobacco	duvan	duhan
to cook	kuvati	kuhati
dry	suvo	suho
deaf	gluvo	gluho

Example 3:

English	Bosnian	Croatian	Serbian
point	tačka	točka	tačka
correct	tačno	točno	tačno
municipality	općina	općina	opština
priest	svećenik	svećenik	sveštenik
male student	student	student	student
female student	studentica	studentica	studentkinja
male professor	profesor	profesor	profesor
female professor	profesorica	profesorica	profesorka
scientist	naučnik	znanstvenik	naučnik
translator	prevodilac	prevoditelj	prevodilac
reader	čitalac	čitatelj	čitalac
diver	ronilac	ronilac (sometimes: ronitelj)	ronilac

Different internationalisms

Example different:

English	Bosnian	Croatian	Serbian
to organise	organizirati organizovati	organizirati	organizovati
to construct	konstruisati konstruirati	konstruirati	konstruisati
But:
to analyse	analizirati	analizirati	analizirati

Different historically 1

http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/ward_1912/ottoman_empire_europe_1792.jpg

Historically, modern age internationalisms entered Bosnian and Croatian mostly through German and Italian, while Serbian received them through French and Russian, so different localisation patterns were established based on those languages. Also, Greek borrowings came to Serbian directly, but through Latin into Croatian:

English	Croatian	Serbian	Note
Bethlehem	Betlehem	Vitlejem	Through Latin in Croatian, through Greek in Serbian
Athens	Atena	Atina
Europe	Europa	Evropa
Cyprus	Cipar	Kipar
chlorine	klor	hlor
impedance	impedanca	impedansa	Through French in Serbian
But:
licence	licenca	licenca	"dozvola" is more common in both languages

Most of chemical element names are different: for international names, Bosnian and Croatian use -ij where Serbian has -ijum (uranij–uranijum). In some native names, Bosnian and Croatian have -ik where Serbian has -(o)nik (kisik–kiseonik(oxygen), vodik–vodonik(hydrogen)). Yet others are totally different (dušik–azot (nitrogen), kositar–kalaj (tin)). Some are the same: srebro (silver), zlato (gold), bakar (copper).

Various dictionary

English	In Serbia	In Croatia	In Bosnia
one thousand	hiljada	tisuća	hiljada
January^[1]	januar	siječanj	januar
factory	fabrika	tvornica	fabrika tvornica
rice	pirinač	riža	riža
carrot	šargarepa	mrkva	mrkva
trousers	pantalone	hlače	hlače
bread	hleb	kruh	hljeb
spinach	spanać	špinat	špinat
football	fudbal	nogomet	fudbal
train	voz	vlak	voz
wave	talas	val	talas
person	lice	osoba	lice osoba
uncivil	nevaspitan	neodgojen	neodgojen
one's own	sopstveno	vlastito	vlastito sopstveno
road^[2]	put drum	cesta put	put džada
road toll	drumarina putarina	cestarina	putarina
dad	tata	tata ćaća	tata babo
tomato	paradajz	rajčica	paradajz

English	Serbian	Croatian	Bosnian
to accept	prihvatati	prihvaćati	prihvatati
happy, lucky	srećan	sretan	sretan srećan
to comprehend	shvatati	shvaćati	shvatati

Names of the months

In the Croatian language months have Slavic names, while Serbian and Bosnian use the same set of international Latin-derived names as English. But Slavic names may also be used in the Bosnian language as well (although, rarely understood); Latin-derived names are preferred.

English	Croatian	Serbian	Bosnian
January	siječanj	januar	januar
February	veljača	februar	februar
March	ožujak	mart	mart
April	travanj	april	april
May	svibanj	maj	maj
June	lipanj	jun	juni
July	srpanj	jul	juli
August	kolovoz	avgust	august
September	rujan	septembar	septembar
October	listopad	oktobar	oktobar
November	studeni	novembar	novembar
December	prosinac	decembar	decembar

Example of other differences 1

Croatian	Bosnian	Serbian	German
William Shakespeare	William Shakespeare	Vilijam Šekspir oder Вилијам Шекспир	William Shakespeare
München	Minhen	Minhen oder Минхен	München
Zürich	Zürich	Cirih oder Цирих	Zürich
Bruxelles	Brisel	Brisel oder Брисел	Brüssel, frz. Bruxelles
New York	New York	Njujork oder Њујорк	New York
SZO oder WHO	WHO	SZO oder СЗО	WHO

Example of other differences 2

Croatian	Bosnian	Serbian	German
Dobar tek! (kajkav.) oder U slast!	Prijatno!		Guten Appetit!
tjedan (kajkav.)	sedmica, hevta (türk.)	nedelja (kirchenslaw.), sedmica	Woche
sat (türk.)	sat, sahat (türk.)	čas (in dieser Bed. aus dem Russ.),^[3] sat (türk.)	Stunde
otok	ostrvo	ostrvo	Insel
vrt	bašča	bašta	Garten
vlak (tschech.)	voz		Zug
kruh	hljeb, somun (türk.)	hleb	Brot
talijanski	italijanski		italienisch
nitko; svatko	niko; svako		niemand; jeder

Example of other differences 3

Croatian	Bosnian	Serbian	German
Španjolska	Španija		Spanien
priopćiti	saopćiti	saopštiti	mitteilen
spol		pol	Geschlecht

South Slavic continum and Central South Slavic diasystem

Dialect	Sub-Dialect	Bulgarian	Macedonian	Serbian	Montenegrin	Bosnian	Croatian	Slovenian
Torlakian		x	x	x
Štokavian	Kosovo-Resava			x
	Šumadija-Vojvodina			x
	Zeta-South Sandžak			x	x	x
	Eastern Herzgovinian			x	x	x	x
	Eastern Bosnian					x	x
	Western Ikavian					x	x
	Slavonian						x
Čakavian							x
Kajkavian							x	x

Different national letters

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/73/Scripts_in_Europe_(1901).jpg http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/archive/2/28/20080408171819!Scripts_in_ urope.PNG

Script and language: Croats not understand the Serbs letter

Croatian alphabet: A B C Č Ć D Dž Đ E F G H I J K L Lj M N Nj O P R S Š T U V Z Ž (Idioma crovate has 31 votes) + diphthong «Ie»

Serbian alphabet: А Б В Г Д Ђ Е Ж З И Ј К Л Љ М Н Њ О П РС Т Ћ У Ф Х Ц Ч Џ Ш (Idioma serbe has 30 votes)

Bosnian alphabet: A B V G D Đ E Ž Z I J K L Lj M N Nj O P R S T Ć U F H C Č Dž Š (Idioma serbe has 30 votes)

NOMINATIVE/Crovate; TKO ŠTO

NOMINATIVE/Serbe; KO ŠTA

Any text in Croatian and Serbian is different !!!!!!!!

↑ 1) All month names are different. See below for full table.
↑ 2) This is an excellent example of foreign influences. "Put" and "cesta" are Slavic, "drum" is Greek and "džada" is Turkish. Moreover, the central difference lies in the fact that Croatian, unlike Serbian or Bosnian, has a tradition of purism, as is the case with the Czech, Slovak, Hungarian and German languages.
↑ vgl. Odbor za standardizaciju srpskog jezika, Odluka br. 1, Punkt 2.0.

Yes, all right, but where's the problem? ... we have an article about Croatian for example... the other languages redirect here 'cause we don't have yet their respective articles... I mean, we can admit articles about Serbian, Bosnian... that's no problem... but all of this are regional forms of the same "language"... phonetics and lexic aren't enough to make two languages different. Bulgarian-Macedonian, Russian-Belorussian, Danish-Norwegian... all of them are in a quite similar situation... just like Galician-Portuguese, Indonesian-Malay or Valencian-Catalan... different names for the same language, due to political reasons... but in many of this cases maybe the differences have grown since those territories are no longer under the same administration. There are also a lot of lexical and phonetical differences between Rioplatense, Mexican, Chilean, Andalusian and Castilian Spanish for example (you can see here some of them), but there's no doubt that they are the same language... --Willtron (?)

23:53 30 nov 2010 (UTC)[responder]

All the texts that you are displaying the Serbian and is not Croatian

You know the war that led the Serbs against Croats, Bosnians and other 1991st Serbian policy of stealing culture of the Croats and Bosnians and Yato no priynaje independence of the Croatian and Bosnian languages.

Document of different serbocroatian languages:

http://www.nsk.hr/UserFiles/File/Slu%C5%BEeno%20prihva%C4%87anje%20izmjena%20ISO%20639-2%20Registration%20Authority.pdf

Languages in Croatia:

http://www.dzs.hr/hrv/censuses/census2001/Popis/H01_02_03/H01_02_03.html

European languages:

http://languagesofeurope.co.uk/Languagesmap.thumb.jpg http://www.p12.nysed.gov/ciai/socst/grade3/geograph.html http://www.gradebook.org/European%20Language%20Classes.htm http://www.croatiantimes.com/news/General_News/2010-11-07/14974/_Croatian_to_become_24th_official_EU_language http://www.ethnologue.com/show_family.asp?subid=292-16

Well... so I have too some links that show that all of them are dialects of the same language:

Language and identity in the Balkans: Serbo-Croatian and its disintegration, [1]; Immigrant languages in Europe; The languages of the world; Engendering Slavic literatures; Language, discourse and borders in the Yugoslav successor states... so I think there is no doubt about the fact that Croatian and Serbian are both varieties of the same language,... separated for political reasons... a lot of the differences between Serbian and Croatian have been created artificially, in order to make them differents... but the structure of the languages still remain the same. Lexic, alphabet... as I said they are not valid arguments to say that a language differs from another (there's also a huge variety of lexic in the different dialects of Castilian, Catalan, English, French, German or Aragonese... and that don't make this dialects different languages... I'm sure that there are more differences between Bavarian German and Low Saxon for example). We need references, and not examples of vocabulary and texts... and with references we can write a section in this article speaking about both "Croatian and Serbian as the same language" and "Croatian and Serbian as different languages"... --Willtron (?) 08:56 1 avi 2010 (UTC)[responder]

Idioma un cultura

Studies must be studied extensively, ... at all levels and from all sides, one-sided views are not precise enough. Language has its own culture. Croatian language has been developed within the Catholic culture and the Western European influence, Bosnian language has evolved in the lap of Turkish culture and Islam. Serbian language is being developed within the Orthodox culture and Russian influence.

Examples of differences in Slavic vocabulary

English language : With respect to exhaust gases and air pollution in the Jerusalem, it would be necessary to take security measures!

Russian language : В отношении выхлопных газов и загрязнения воздуха в Иерусалиме, было бы необходимо принимать меры безопасности!

Bulgarian language : По отношение на изгорелите газове и замърсяването на въздуха в Ерусалим, че ще бъде необходимо да се вземат мерки за сигурност!

Serbian language : У погледу издувних гасова и загађивања ваздуха у Јерусалиму, било би потребно предузети мере безбедности!

(U pogledu izduvnih gasova i zagađivanja vazduha u Jerusalimu, bilo bi potrebno preduzeti mere bezbednosti)

Croatian language : Glede ispušnih plinova i zagađivanja zraka u Jeruzalemu, bilo bi potrebito poduzeti mjere sigurnosti!

Slovenian language : Glede izpušnih plinov in onesnaženosti zraka v Jeruzalemu, bi bilo treba sprejeti varnostne ukrepe!

Czech Language : S ohledem na emise výfukových plynů a znečištění ovzduší v Jeruzalémě, bylo by nutné přijmout bezpečnostní opatření!

serbocrovate is NOT Idioma

serbocrovate is DIASISTEM or GROUP LANGUAGES/IDIOMAS:

[ref1-1] 1) All month names are different. See below for full table.

[ref2-2] 2) This is an excellent example of foreign influences. "Put" and "cesta" are Slavic, "drum" is Greek and "džada" is Turkish. Moreover, the central difference lies in the fact that Croatian, unlike Serbian or Bosnian, has a tradition of purism, as is the case with the Czech, Slovak, Hungarian and German languages.

[3] vgl. Odbor za standardizaciju srpskog jezika, Odluka br. 1, Punkt 2.0.

[1]

[2]

[3]