Descusión:Idioma serbo-crovate

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http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1a/Slavic_languages.png

Idioma croata spesial: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Croatian_dialects.PNG

Si o etnonimo plural ye crobates o idioma será....[editar código]

Creigo que en aragonés lo hemos de escribir con consonant etimolochica, que desfá por atra parte o hiato. A terminazión no ye guaire ortodocsa e se puet discutir. Propongo que en aragonés escribamos serbocrobate, serbocrobato, serbocrobat u serbocrobata...¿cuala sería a més correcta?.--EBRO 19:18 2 otu 2009 (UTC)

Ixo yera lo que yo preguntaba en a descusión de crobates :-D... yo me suposo que si o plural ye "crobates" o más natural ye escribir "crobate"... si escribisenos "crobat" en singular o plural aberba d'estar "crobaz". Cuan aigamos preso una dezisión feré o cambeyo con o bot tanto en singular como en plural. --Willtron (?) LinkFA-star Aragon.svg 19:26 2 otu 2009 (UTC)
Veigo que tenemos una dentrada serbo-croata y unatra idioma crovate; en os dos casos s'habría a unificar o termino, que considero que ha d'estar "crovata" (serbo-crovata y Idioma crovata).--Francho 13:16 4 ago 2010 (UTC)
Si, tiens razón, yo escribiría idioma servocrovate, luenga servocrovata, pero a questión mos supera un poquet estando tan pocos usuarios, o que mos obliga a estar prudents. Sobre o etnonimo crovates tamién tenemos atra discusión.--EBRO 13:25 4 ago 2010 (UTC)
Si o que preguntas ye o de borrar l'articlo idioma crovate, no cal, porque en realidat ye un articlo sobre l'uso crovate d'o idioma servocrovate, bi ha en atras wikis articlos con títol equivalent, y este articlo ye d'o mesmo estilo de l'articlo luenga valenciana, on especificamos que fa part d'o catalán, y que se XXX los blaveros y peperos.--EBRO 13:27 4 ago 2010 (UTC)
Agora tenemos como títol Idioma serbocroata. Como minimo ta tener coherencia con o etnonimo crovates, voi a tresladar-lo ta Idioma serbocrovate, adhibindo nomás ixa -v-. Tamién foi a reendrecera dende Idioma serbocrovata, y quan tiengamos más datos, se cambia a rematanza si cal.--Juan Pablo 17:04 23 ago 2010 (UTC)
Suposo que habría que escribir idioma serbocrovate y luenga serbocrovata, no se si existe o femenín mainata de mainate, caldrá mirar parabras que en aragonés actual tiengan una -e final dezaga de -t talment recomposata. En relación a lo plural ya tos dicié que cal escribir crovates con plural en -es porque ye a sola cita clara, l'atra ye troacs con errors de confusions de letras tipicos d'a caligrafía meyeval, y l'atra crovati (elemento latín en un texto romanz). Ixo no quiere dicir que no haiga existito un plural tipo crovatz que encara no he puesto documentar.--EBRO 22:58 27 nov 2010 (UTC)

Idioma difereca[editar código]

Engels Kroaties Serwies
Compare Usporedba Поређење (Poređenje)
Europe Europa Европа (Evropa)
Netherlands Nizozemska Холандија (Holandija)
Italians Talijani Италијани (Italijani)
Universe Svemir Васиона (Vasiona)
Spine Kralježnica Кичма (Kičma)
Air Zrak Ваздух (Vazduh)
Education Odgoj Васпитање (Vaspitanje)
Week Tjedan Седмица (Sedmica)
History Povijest Историја (Istorija)
Pantaloons Hlače Панталоне (Pantalone)
Belly Trbuh Стомак (Stomak)
Science Znanost Наука (Nauka)
Personally Osobno Лично (Lično)
Persona Osoba Лице (Lice)
United Nations Ujedinjeni Narodi Уједињене Нације (Ujedinjene Nacije)
Bread Kruh Хлеб (Hleb)
Artificial Umjetno Вештачки (Veštački)
Cross Križ Крст (Krst)
Democracy Demokracija Демократија (Demokratija)
Detection Spoznaja Сазнање (Saznanje)
Island Otok Острво (Ostrvo)
Officer Časnik Официр (Oficir)
Road traffic Cestovni promet Друмски саобраћај (Drumski saobraćaj)
Autobahn Autocesta Аутопут (Autoput)
Length Duljina Дужина (Dužina)
Association Udruga Удружење (Udruženje)
Factory Tvornica Фабрика (Fabrika)
General Opće Опште (Opšte)
Christ Krist Христoс (Hristos)
I'm sorry Oprosti Извини (Izvini)
Native language standard Materinski jezićni standard Матерњи језички стандард

Serbo-Croata/Croato-Serba differents idioma[editar código]

Serbo-Croata/Croato-Serba group 4 idioma !

Diferente idioma[editar código]

Français Croate Bosniaqe Serbe
Comme les gaz d'échappement et la pollution atmosphérique dans la Jérusalem, il serait nécessaire de prendre des mesures pour assurer la sécurité! Glede ispušnih plinova i zagađivanja zraka u Jeruzalemu, bilo bi potrebito poduzeti mjere sigurnosti! U pogledu izduvnih gasova i zagađivanja vazduha u Jerusalimu, bilo bi potrebno preduzeti mjere bezbjednosti! У погледу издувних гасова и загађивања ваздуха у Јерусалиму, било би потребно предузети мере безбедности!
Croate Bosniaqe Serbe Français
Bijela sol za kuhanje kemijski je spoj natrija i klora. Bijela so za kuhanje je hemijski spoj natrijuma i hlora. Bela so za kuvanje je hemijsko jedinjenje natrijuma i hlora. Le sel blanc pour la cuisine est un composé chimique du sodium et du chlore.
Vlak sa željezničkoga kolodvora krenut će točno u deset sati. Voz sa željezničke stanice krenut će tačno u deset sati. Voz sa železničke stanice krenuće tačno u deset sati/časova. Le train de la gare va commencer exactement à dix heures.

This doesn't make a diferent tongue, in all the tongues there is geosinomims and little fonetic differences between the variants. --EBRO 13:25 4 ago 2010 (UTC)

serbo-crovate ????[editar código]

  • Grupo serbocrovate = idioma serbe + idioma crovate + idioma bosniaqe + idioma montenegre
  • Grupo espanie = idioma kastilie + idioma katalonie + idioma galiege..
No, nothing to do with this... there's no "grupo espanie"... where do you find this?? Castilian, Catalonian and Galician are all of them different languages... on the other hand we're talking about different standards of the same language: serbo-croatian... here we have one language and four different standards: Bosnian, Croatian, Serbian and Montenegrin... those standards are based only in regional differences with different names due to political reasons (different countries). Just like "Catalonian" and "Valencian" or "Galician" and "Portuguese"... but Castilian, Catalonian and Galician??? what's the relation between this three languages??? ...So... what's exactly your question? what do you mean with this? Regards --Willtron (?) Estandarte de la Corona de Aragon.svg 22:59 27 nov 2010 (UTC)
Between the croatian of Ragusa, the bosniac of Mostar and the serbian of Belgrado there is total comprehesion, like between the valencian and barcelonian use of catalan, and like the galician and portuguese uses of galacoportugués. It's not posible total comprehesion without not learning betweeen catalan and castellanish, it's the reason that mades catalan, aragonese and castellanish different languages ant the same reason that makes stokavski serbocroatian a common and single language. I have been in Montenegro, Herzegovina and Dalmatia and the words are almost the same and some words like the word to say hidrochén are very different in croatian use because of the way to introduce the neologisms whit total traduction from original rooths. The divergence of slavic and turquic languages and dialects is more recent than the divergence in latin languages, so the differences are smaller.--EBRO 23:23 27 nov 2010 (UTC)

All Slavic languages are similar but not the same language[editar código]

Differences between the Croatian and Serbian on the other languages are equal to differences between the Czech and Slovak / Bulgarian and Macedonian / Russian and Belarussian / Danish and Norwegian .....

These are old DIFFERENCES

These are illustrated in the following table:

South Slavic West Slavic East Slavic
Late Proto-slavic reconstruction Late Proto-Slavic meaning Old Church Slavonic Slovenian Croatian(CROVATE) Serbian(SERBE) Bulgarian Macedonian Czech Slovak Polish Belarusian Russian Ukrainian
*gvězda star звѣзда zvezda zvijezda звезда звезда звезда hvězda hviezda gwiazda зорка звезда звізда
*květъ flower, bloom цвѣтъ cvet cvijet цвет цвете цвет květ kvet kwiat кветка цвет квітка
*tisošta tisošta тысѫшта tisoč tisuća хиљада хиляда илјада tisíc tisíc tysiąc тисяча тысяча тисяча

Different phonetics 1[editar código]

Feature Croatian Serbian English
Opposition -u/e burza berza stock-exchange
porculan porcelan porcelain
Opposition -u/i tanjur tanjir plate
Opposition -l/-o after o sol so salt
vol vo ox
kolčić kočić stick
Serbian often drops letter H in
the initial and medial position:
čahura čaura cartridge
hrvač rvač wrestler
hrđa rđa rust

Different phonetics 2[editar código]

Croatian language Latin altgriechische Aussprache Gerk alphabet|griech. Buchstabe byzantinische Aussprache Serbian language
b b [b] β [v] v
e e [ɛː] η [i] i
k oder c c [k] κ [k] k
u u [u̯] υ (nach Vokal) [v] v
k oder h ch [kʰ] χ [x] h

Different morphology[editar código]

Example 1:

English Croatian Serbian
add by pouring* dolijevati dolivati*
diarrhea proljev proliv
gulf, bay zaljev zaliv
to influence utjecati uticati

Example 2:

English Serbian Croatian
tobacco duvan duhan
to cook kuvati kuhati
dry suvo suho
deaf gluvo gluho

Example 3:

English Bosnian Croatian Serbian
point tačka točka tačka
correct tačno točno tačno
municipality općina općina opština
priest svećenik svećenik sveštenik
male student student student student
female student studentica studentica studentkinja
male professor profesor profesor profesor
female professor profesorica profesorica profesorka
scientist naučnik znanstvenik naučnik
translator prevodilac prevoditelj prevodilac
reader čitalac čitatelj čitalac
diver ronilac ronilac
(sometimes:
ronitelj)
ronilac

Different internationalisms[editar código]

Example different:

English Bosnian Croatian Serbian
to organise organizirati
organizovati
organizirati organizovati
to construct konstruisati
konstruirati
konstruirati konstruisati
But:
to analyse analizirati analizirati analizirati

Different historically 1[editar código]

http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/ward_1912/ottoman_empire_europe_1792.jpg

Historically, modern age internationalisms entered Bosnian and Croatian mostly through German and Italian, while Serbian received them through French and Russian, so different localisation patterns were established based on those languages. Also, Greek borrowings came to Serbian directly, but through Latin into Croatian:

English Croatian Serbian Note
Bethlehem Betlehem Vitlejem Through Latin in Croatian, through Greek in Serbian
Athens Atena Atina
Europe Europa Evropa
Cyprus Cipar Kipar
chlorine klor hlor
impedance impedanca impedansa Through French in Serbian
But:
licence licenca licenca "dozvola" is more common in both languages

Most of chemical element names are different: for international names, Bosnian and Croatian use -ij where Serbian has -ijum (uranijuranijum). In some native names, Bosnian and Croatian have -ik where Serbian has -(o)nik (kisikkiseonik(oxygen), vodikvodonik(hydrogen)). Yet others are totally different (dušikazot (nitrogen), kositarkalaj (tin)). Some are the same: srebro (silver), zlato (gold), bakar (copper).

Various dictionary[editar código]

English In Serbia In Croatia In Bosnia
one thousand hiljada tisuća hiljada
January[1] januar siječanj januar
factory fabrika tvornica fabrika
tvornica
rice pirinač riža riža
carrot šargarepa mrkva mrkva
trousers pantalone hlače hlače
bread hleb kruh hljeb
spinach spanać špinat špinat
football fudbal nogomet fudbal
train voz vlak voz
wave talas val talas
person lice osoba lice
osoba
uncivil nevaspitan neodgojen neodgojen
one's own sopstveno vlastito vlastito
sopstveno
road[2] put
drum
cesta
put
put
džada
road toll drumarina
putarina
cestarina putarina
dad tata tata
ćaća
tata
babo
tomato paradajz rajčica paradajz
English Serbian Croatian Bosnian
to accept prihvatati prihvaćati prihvatati
happy, lucky srećan sretan sretan
srećan
to comprehend shvatati shvaćati shvatati

Names of the months[editar código]

In the Croatian language months have Slavic names, while Serbian and Bosnian use the same set of international Latin-derived names as English. But Slavic names may also be used in the Bosnian language as well (although, rarely understood); Latin-derived names are preferred.

English Croatian Serbian Bosnian
January siječanj januar januar
February veljača februar februar
March ožujak mart mart
April travanj april april
May svibanj maj maj
June lipanj jun juni
July srpanj jul juli
August kolovoz avgust august
September rujan septembar septembar
October listopad oktobar oktobar
November studeni novembar novembar
December prosinac decembar decembar

Example of other differences 1[editar código]

Croatian Bosnian Serbian German
William Shakespeare William Shakespeare Vilijam Šekspir oder Вилијам Шекспир William Shakespeare
München Minhen Minhen oder Минхен München
Zürich Zürich Cirih oder Цирих Zürich
Bruxelles Brisel Brisel oder Брисел Brüssel, frz. Bruxelles
New York New York Njujork oder Њујорк New York
SZO oder WHO WHO SZO oder СЗО WHO

Example of other differences 2[editar código]

Croatian Bosnian Serbian German
Dobar tek! (kajkav.) oder U slast! Prijatno! Guten Appetit!
tjedan (kajkav.) sedmica, hevta (türk.) nedelja (kirchenslaw.), sedmica Woche
sat (türk.) sat, sahat (türk.) čas (in dieser Bed. aus dem Russ.),[3]
sat (türk.)
Stunde
otok ostrvo ostrvo Insel
vrt bašča bašta Garten
vlak (tschech.) voz Zug
kruh hljeb, somun (türk.) hleb Brot
talijanski italijanski italienisch
nitko; svatko niko; svako niemand; jeder

Example of other differences 3[editar código]

Croatian Bosnian Serbian German
Španjolska Španija Spanien
priopćiti saopćiti saopštiti mitteilen
spol pol Geschlecht

South Slavic continum and Central South Slavic diasystem[editar código]

Dialect Sub-Dialect Bulgarian Macedonian Serbian Montenegrin Bosnian Croatian Slovenian
Torlakian x x x
Štokavian Kosovo-Resava x
Šumadija-Vojvodina x
Zeta-South Sandžak x x x
Eastern Herzgovinian x x x x
Eastern Bosnian x x
Western Ikavian x x
Slavonian x
Čakavian x
Kajkavian x x

Different national letters[editar código]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/73/Scripts_in_Europe_(1901).jpg http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/archive/2/28/20080408171819!Scripts_in_ urope.PNG

Script and language: Croats not understand the Serbs letter

  • Croatian alphabet: A B C Č Ć D Dž Đ E F G H I J K L Lj M N Nj O P R S Š T U V Z Ž (Idioma crovate has 31 votes) + diphthong «Ie»
  • Serbian alphabet: А Б В Г Д Ђ Е Ж З И Ј К Л Љ М Н Њ О П РС Т Ћ У Ф Х Ц Ч Џ Ш (Idioma serbe has 30 votes)
  • Bosnian alphabet: A B V G D Đ E Ž Z I J K L Lj M N Nj O P R S T Ć U F H C Č Dž Š (Idioma serbe has 30 votes)


  • NOMINATIVE/Crovate; TKO ŠTO
  • NOMINATIVE/Serbe; KO ŠTA

Any text in Croatian and Serbian is different !!!!!!!!

  1. 1) All month names are different. See below for full table.
  2. 2) This is an excellent example of foreign influences. "Put" and "cesta" are Slavic, "drum" is Greek and "džada" is Turkish. Moreover, the central difference lies in the fact that Croatian, unlike Serbian or Bosnian, has a tradition of purism, as is the case with the Czech, Slovak, Hungarian and German languages.
  3. vgl. Odbor za standardizaciju srpskog jezika, Odluka br. 1, Punkt 2.0.
Yes, all right, but where's the problem? ... we have an article about Croatian for example... the other languages redirect here 'cause we don't have yet their respective articles... I mean, we can admit articles about Serbian, Bosnian... that's no problem... but all of this are regional forms of the same "language"... phonetics and lexic aren't enough to make two languages different. Bulgarian-Macedonian, Russian-Belorussian, Danish-Norwegian... all of them are in a quite similar situation... just like Galician-Portuguese, Indonesian-Malay or Valencian-Catalan... different names for the same language, due to political reasons... but in many of this cases maybe the differences have grown since those territories are no longer under the same administration. There are also a lot of lexical and phonetical differences between Rioplatense, Mexican, Chilean, Andalusian and Castilian Spanish for example (you can see here some of them), but there's no doubt that they are the same language... --Willtron (?) Estandarte de la Corona de Aragon.svg 23:53 30 nov 2010 (UTC)

All the texts that you are displaying the Serbian and is not Croatian[editar código]

You know the war that led the Serbs against Croats, Bosnians and other 1991st Serbian policy of stealing culture of the Croats and Bosnians and Yato no priynaje independence of the Croatian and Bosnian languages.

  • Document of different serbocroatian languages:

http://www.nsk.hr/UserFiles/File/Slu%C5%BEeno%20prihva%C4%87anje%20izmjena%20ISO%20639-2%20Registration%20Authority.pdf

  • Languages in Croatia:

http://www.dzs.hr/hrv/censuses/census2001/Popis/H01_02_03/H01_02_03.html

  • European languages:

http://languagesofeurope.co.uk/Languagesmap.thumb.jpg http://www.p12.nysed.gov/ciai/socst/grade3/geograph.html http://www.gradebook.org/European%20Language%20Classes.htm http://www.croatiantimes.com/news/General_News/2010-11-07/14974/_Croatian_to_become_24th_official_EU_language http://www.ethnologue.com/show_family.asp?subid=292-16

Well... so I have too some links that show that all of them are dialects of the same language:
  • Language and identity in the Balkans: Serbo-Croatian and its disintegration, [1]; Immigrant languages in Europe; The languages of the world; Engendering Slavic literatures; Language, discourse and borders in the Yugoslav successor states... so I think there is no doubt about the fact that Croatian and Serbian are both varieties of the same language,... separated for political reasons... a lot of the differences between Serbian and Croatian have been created artificially, in order to make them differents... but the structure of the languages still remain the same. Lexic, alphabet... as I said they are not valid arguments to say that a language differs from another (there's also a huge variety of lexic in the different dialects of Castilian, Catalan, English, French, German or Aragonese... and that don't make this dialects different languages... I'm sure that there are more differences between Bavarian German and Low Saxon for example). We need references, and not examples of vocabulary and texts... and with references we can write a section in this article speaking about both "Croatian and Serbian as the same language" and "Croatian and Serbian as different languages"... --Willtron (?) Estandarte de la Corona de Aragon.svg 08:56 1 avi 2010 (UTC)

Idioma un cultura[editar código]

Studies must be studied extensively, ... at all levels and from all sides, one-sided views are not precise enough. Language has its own culture. Croatian language has been developed within the Catholic culture and the Western European influence, Bosnian language has evolved in the lap of Turkish culture and Islam. Serbian language is being developed within the Orthodox culture and Russian influence.

Examples of differences in Slavic vocabulary[editar código]

  • English language : With respect to exhaust gases and air pollution in the Jerusalem, it would be necessary to take security measures!

  • Russian language : В отношении выхлопных газов и загрязнения воздуха в Иерусалиме, было бы необходимо принимать меры безопасности!

  • Bulgarian language : По отношение на изгорелите газове и замърсяването на въздуха в Ерусалим, че ще бъде необходимо да се вземат мерки за сигурност!

  • Serbian language : У погледу издувних гасова и загађивања ваздуха у Јерусалиму, било би потребно предузети мере безбедности!

(U pogledu izduvnih gasova i zagađivanja vazduha u Jerusalimu, bilo bi potrebno preduzeti mere bezbednosti)


  • Croatian language : Glede ispušnih plinova i zagađivanja zraka u Jeruzalemu, bilo bi potrebito poduzeti mjere sigurnosti!

  • Slovenian language : Glede izpušnih plinov in onesnaženosti zraka v Jeruzalemu, bi bilo treba sprejeti varnostne ukrepe!


  • Czech Language : S ohledem na emise výfukových plynů a znečištění ovzduší v Jeruzalémě, bylo by nutné přijmout bezpečnostní opatření!

serbocrovate is NOT Idioma[editar código]

serbocrovate is DIASISTEM or GROUP LANGUAGES/IDIOMAS: